Tactics Tuesdays: Fielding Women's Counteroffers

Responding to my article on guys not needing much money to get girls, reader Newyorkboy asks about women having 'resistance to doing' cheap or costless dates.

As an example, he cites this incident posted on SoSuave.net by a user named 'powersize':

Texted a latina girl in IG, after a short convo proposed to meet. She is 7/8 - not a dime for me. Below is our conversation:

Me: Are you free tonight?
Her: Maybe. Where would you like to take me?
Me: There is one hipster pub close to center
Her: I can’t drink alcohol. I prefer somewhere more relax.
Me: Coffee?
Her: No. A restaurant where we don’t have that much noise
Me: I do not go on dinners on the first date
Her: I do. That’s what gentleman should do At least that’s what I am getting used to.
Me: So you define if the guy is a gentleman if he brings to you to a fancy place?
Her: Who says it has to be fancy. I define a gentleman a man who takes his time to take me somewhere. A coffee is something I can do anytime
Me: Too bad. Cause I love coffee meeting that people can do anytime
Her: Enjoy your coffee then

I do consider her as a typical chick who is looking for guy. So no reply from my side.

What do you think?

In light of the abysmal text game on evidence here and the fact that this fellow is messaging girls in Instagram, the girl's reaction is pretty standard. Generous, even, I'd say.

Most of the time when you fail at game, you get a rejection. But sometimes when you fail at game, girls will still offer you a shot as a provider.

That's what happened here.

Of course, if you're going to be a provider, you have to provide. You cannot start talking about your rules of never doing dinner dates or talking up the glory of cheap dates once she's slotted you into the provider role.

So not only did this cat fail at game, he could not fulfill the provider role either -- and he at last received the inevitable rejection.

How could he have done things differently and achieved a different result?

One part of the answer lies in how he deals with fielding women's counteroffers.

 

The Forms Her Counteroffers Can Take

Just because a woman counteroffers you does not necessarily mean you've failed the Chad Test and are now in the boyfriend zone.

In the example above, that's what happened, but it won't always be so.

There are various reasons a woman may counteroffer an offer of yours:

1. Logistics block her from accepting your offer (i.e., she just can't do it)

2. Logistics don't block but do limit her (i.e., it's inconvenient)

3. Your offer is something she really dislikes to do (i.e., she'd really rather not)

4. Your offer is uninspiring and she isn't into you enough for that

5. You've screened yourself out as a lover so she's trying to see if you'll fit as a boyfriend or friend

Our hero from the start of this article suffered the fate of bullet E., but any of these can be the cause.

 

Quick Explanation of Powersize's Flop

It's not the main focus of the article (the main focus is counteroffers), but let's have a quick look at everything powersize did wrong in that text conversation.

Every single thing he says is a mistake.

It's honestly a little uncommon to see EVERY line a guy texts a girl contain screwups. Somehow powersize pulls this rare feat off and veers his texting into the abominable.

I'll take you through it.

The first thing he asks her is

powersize: Are you free tonight?

Asking this way looks 'hands out' to most girls, unless she already sees you as very smooth. A powerful dude can ask "Are you free tonight?" if she assumes he is not going to care and will just shrug it off if he says no. Otherwise, it sounds a little too close to begging for comfort.

"Are you free tonight?" is also a yes/no question. Either "Yes, I'm free" or "No, I'm not." If she says no, it's negative compliance, and now you're in a hole. This is a high risk way to ask her out.

What's the low risk way? "What's your schedule like tonight / this week?" (the key item is including both 'tonight' and 'this week')

This way:

• If she's free tonight and wants to meet, she'll tell you

• If she isn't free tonight or doesn't want to meet, she doesn't need to reject you or lie, and instead can just tell you WHEN she's free

Wins all around!

However, our hero committed an even more egregious, cardinal sin when he asked her if she's free.

Look at her next response:

Her: Maybe. Where would you like to take me?

This girl doesn't know.

She doesn't know where he's taking her.

Which means he asked her if she's free BEFORE he proposed a date!

This is a big, big no-no. People do not like surprises, and they like them even less with people they barely know and do not trust.

If you just met a random guy on the street named Steve, and Steve was chatting you up, following you around, and sort of being half likeable, half irritating, and then suddenly said, "Hey man, are you free right now?" what would happen inside your head?

You'd probably panic a tiny bit and wonder, "Oh boy, what does this guy want? How much of my time is he going to ask for? What exactly does he want to do? Am I going to regret it if I say yes?"

When you ask people -- and particularly women, who have guys asking them this all the time -- if they are free at XYZ date/time without proposing what it is you will actually do with them first, you raise the odds of rejection by A LOT.

This girl is actually pretty cool here, in that she doesn't give a flat-out no, but gives him a maybe. She must have had at least a little interest in him, otherwise she'd have taken the opportunity to give him the slip.

I'm not going to do a full breakdown of the rest of powersize's eye-gouging texting, since this section's already getting long and I want to focus on counteroffers here, but here's the quick play-by-play of the rest of this text messaging Chernobyl:

• "There is one hipster pub close to center" --> boy, now THERE's an offer no girl could say "no" to! Overselling he is not

• "Coffee?" --> yes, that's it. When she rejects your first offer, just throw out a one word question, then hope and pray. Not to mention that instead of him leading, this helpless response leaves it wide open for her to lead... which she does in her very next test

• "I do not go on dinners on the first date" --> oh yeah, look at that. Rigid, inflexible rules, talking about what he "does not do" without making it fun for her or proposing anything at all. Now he's fallen into her frame, pushing back on what she's proposing, as she takes the lead. Good thinking, that'll definitely make her want to come out

• "So you define if the guy is a gentleman if he brings to you to a fancy place?" --> now he's trying to tell her how to date. She's getting wetter by the second here

• "Too bad. Cause I love coffee meeting that people can do anytime" --> king of persuasion right there. I'm surprised she didn't just turn around and say, "That's a great point. Coffee meeting that people can do anytime. You're right. I'll get my purse"

Now I see why guys say SoSuave is a wasteland.

Seriously, the texting here was horrific, but a lot of guys are really, really bad at texting.

May well be this guy is fine in real life; I don't want to dump on him too hard.

But this texting is some minor, minor league stuff. It's textbook Clueless Boring Questions Guy™ from my article on the categories of texters.

READ MORE: How to Text Girls: 20 More Tips and Techniques

You can't look at terrible, face-palm-worthy texting and conclude, "Well, girls want this guy who is a catastrophic texter to pay for meals for them, therefore girls do not like inexpensive dates."

The fact is if you are bad at game, you are going into the provider box -- if you're lucky (and don't get friend zoned or rejected outright).

If you don't want to horrify women with your texting, read that article I linked. Maybe pick up my texting book on Amazon.

But yeah, the only thing we can see here is that this guy is amateur hour with his texting.

Let's get to the main focus of this piece now, though.

Let's talk about counteroffers.

 

Fielding Counteroffers from Women You Like

If you don't like her, of course, you can always just say, "Nope. My way or the highway!"

If you do like her though, you can afford to be a bit more flexible... or a bit more persuasive.

First off: if you want to avoid having to deal with too many counteroffers, don't screw the ask up.

If you don't screw the way you ask her out up, fielding counteroffers becomes a fairly infrequent thing.

Just to recap, here is how to ask a woman out:

1. Propose a date ("We should grab a bite or a drink sometime")

2. Once she accepts ("Sure"), take her contact info ("Cool. Let me get your contact")

3. If you're already messaging with her (like powersize on Instagram), you can skip her contact and go to #4

4. Once you have her contact info, ask her what her schedule's like this week and possibly next

5. From the list of times and dates she says she's free, pick one that works for you

6. Tell her the date and time you picked, then tell her where to meet you

7. Done

You'll get counteroffers less than 10% of the time doing things this way.

That said, you will still get them sometimes. So let's talk about how to respond.

 

Responding to Logistical Counteroffers

A logistical counteroffer is when a woman proposes something else because she either can't or would be highly inconvenienced trying to do what you've proposed.

For instance:

You: What say we take a stroll down Clamshell Beach?

Her: That's too far for me. How about something in Old Town?

Or here's another example of a logistical counteroffer:

You: Let's say drinks at Marvin's, Friday at 8:30 PM?

Her: That sounds good. But my friend Tara's visiting. She's staying at my place and doesn't know anyone. I can't leave her at home. Can both of us come?

Both of these are logistical counteroffers because they propose something different than you proposed due to your date's logistics:

1. In the first example, Clamshell Beach is too far. She proposes an area closer to her instead

2. In the second example, the date time and idea are fine, but she has a friend visiting. She asks to bring the friend with her

How do you respond to these?

It's going to depend on:

1. How abundant women are for you

2. How much you like the girl

3. How big an inconvenience (or not) her counteroffer would be

4. Whether you could still run an effective date there or not

For example, with regard to our first example, if:

• Women aren't super abundant for you

• You fairly well like this girl

• Old Town's actually pretty close to you

• You know some good spots you can take her there

... then you are actually probably going to be fine with her offer. In which case, all you need to say is, "That's actually perfect. Let's meet [DATE SHE'S FREE] at [TIME SHE'S FREE], cool?"

On the other hand, with regard to that same first example, if:

• You have an abundance of dating options

• You don't particularly care about this girl

• It'd be going out of your way to go to Old Town

• You can't think of anywhere good for dates there, either

... well in that case it does not make sense to accept. You can either counteroffer her counteroffer, preferably by checking what other areas work for her so it's not just you proposing things and her shooting them down... that looks like so: "Hmm, not really a fan of Old Town. What other areas work for you?"... or if you just don't even want to be bothered (who cares about this girl!) unless she's willing to do stuff on your terms, then you can just tell her that, a la: "Oh, that's too bad. I really kind of just want to go to the beach. We'll connect another time."

How about the "bring a friend" example?

Same deal:

• If you're fine with it (maybe you're going to go for gold and try to seduce them both?), just tell her, "Yeah, bring her along! No sense making her sit alone at home twiddling her thumbs ;)"

• If you're not fine with it, just tell her, "Actually I'm a little burned out on group stuff, I kinda just want to do something one-on-one. Why don't we connect again after your friend's visit ends?"

You should really expect to do that, if you're going to say it.

That said, I have a few times encountered the case of "the magic disappearing friend", where a girl wanted to bring a friend she was responsible for along, I told her "Never mind, let's connect again later, take care of your friend," and then she texted back a short while later to announce the friend had made other plans and she (the girl I'd been texting) was ready to come out.

That's about as green a light as you're going to get.

 

Responding to Preferential Counteroffers

Our second category of counteroffers are those where the primary obstacle is not logistics but preference.

i.e., she doesn't want to do what you're proposing. She wants to do something else.

A couple of examples. Example 1:

You: There's a brand new wine bar opening up downtown. Want to go to the wine tasting?

Her: I don't drink. What about going to an outdoor music festival? There's one this weekend.

Example 2:

You: There's this really neat theme café in East Park. We should go there, you'd love it.

Her: I don't like East Park. Can we do something in Lawson?

The same decision-making calculus we used for logistical counteroffers applies here too:

1. How abundant women are for you

2. How much you like the girl

3. How big an inconvenience (or not) her counteroffer would be

4. Whether you could still run an effective date there or not

If you decide her idea sounds fine, you can accept her counteroffer:

• "A music festival? That's a great idea"

• "Lawson works equally well, sure"

If you don't want her idea but still want to try to meet, you can counteroffer her counteroffer:

• "Music festival's going to be a bit too wild for me, I've had a tough week. Something quiet maybe? A little café, or even a walk through the park?"

• "Hmm, you don't like East Park, but I don't like Lawson. Neutral ground, maybe? Downtown work?"

If you simply don't want to bother with her idea, beg off and tell her you'll reconnect with her later.

 

Responding to Trust- and Pace-Based Counteroffers

A third type of counteroffer you'll encounter are trust- and pace-based counteroffers.

Trust-based counteroffers happen when she doesn't trust you enough for the date you propose.

Pace-based counteroffers occur when she feels you're moving too fast for the date you propose.

Of course, we always want to move faster where possible -- but that doesn't mean you skip steps she isn't ready to skip!

Here's an example of a trust-based counteroffer:

You: How about a daytrip out to Reddington this Saturday? They have amazing apple pies there.

Her: I feel like I'd like to know you a little better before we start doing daytrips. Maybe we can do coffees?

What she's telling you there is she does not yet trust you enough to commit herself to a daytrip somewhere far away where she'll be stuck with you in a car and somewhere far from everyone else she knows all day.

Here's an example of a pace-based counteroffer:

You: Let's do Saturday night, 8 PM, my place. We'll put a movie on and crack open beers.

Her: I think we're moving a bit too fast here lol. Can we meet at like a café or a restaurant?

Once again, our standard counteroffer decision-making calculus applies, with considerations of:

1. How abundant women are for you

2. How much you like the girl

3. How big an inconvenience (or not) her counteroffer would be

4. Whether you could still run an effective date there or not

We'll look at examples of responding to each of these counteroffers from women.

Accepting the offer:

• "Lol, sure. Coffees is fine. Wouldn't want you to feel like you're trapped in apple pie land with me prematurely. We'll save that for later ;) Why don't we do Pierre's Café on Vine St, you know it? We can meet there 1 o'clock-ish."

• "Haha, okay. I guess I live life a little faster than most folks. Let's do Monkey House Coffee & Cocktails Saturday at 8 PM instead. That work?"

Counteroffering her counteroffer:

When the issue is trust- or pace-based, I DO NOT recommend counteroffering a woman's counteroffer.

Otherwise you have a situation like this:

• You: "Let's do X."

• Her: "I don't feel comfortable enough with you for X. Can we do Y so I can feel more comfortable?"

• You: "Let's do Z."

It feels like you are ignoring the REAL issue here, which is her needing more comfort or time to get to know you. Assuming what she has proposed for that is something reasonable, you should just take it.

The one time counteroffers are valid here is when she tries to nail you down into something very specific:

You: Let's do Saturday night, 8 PM, my place. We'll put a movie on and crack open beers.

Her: I think we're moving a bit too fast here lol. How about Frank's Lounge that night at 10?

In this case, she is leading a little too strongly (the general rule is, women can propose rough times and rough areas, but the man should be deciding on the specifics). You will not usually sleep with girls you let lead (instead you'll end up friend zoned), so you need to take the reins back.

A good response here looks like this:

You: Let's do Saturday night, 8 PM, my place. We'll put a movie on and crack open beers.

Her: I think we're moving a bit too fast here lol. How about Frank's Lounge that night at 10?

You: lol, Frank's Lounge? That place is so shady. What say we meet at the Starbucks at 10th and Greenleaf and we'll start walking and pick a place we both like from there? Meet at 9:30 maybe?

Her: lol okay. See u at 9:30

Bowing out:

It won't usually be necessary to bow out if she needs more trust or to go a bit slower.

But you might be juggling a lot of girls right now and a bunch more things keeping you busy and may not have the time.

Or this girl might be dragging things out with you longer than you like and you're tired of how long it's taking.

Here's how you can bow out:

• "Haha, is a daytrip with me scary? All right, well I have to head up there anyway this weekend. I won't be around but we'll see if we can link up when I get back."

• "Well, I do like to move fast ;) I'm not really in a going out mood this weekend, it's just been too long and tiring a week. Let's link up again next week, maybe we can figure out something we both want to do then."

 

No Reason Given Counteroffers

Occasionally you'll field counteroffers where the girl doesn't give you a reason.

That's like this:

You: Why don't we say Tuesday, 6:30 PM, at The Face down on Martinez St

Her: My friend just invited me to drink cocktails by the beach Tuesday night. Why don't we do that?

Assuming you were doing things right, and you proposed the date first, and she said yes, and then you checked her schedule next, and she told you when she was free, and you then picked a time she said she was available at and proposed the meet, there's no good reason for her to do this "Oh suddenly another idea, let's change to that" thing.

She might be trying to tool you (but it's not that likely). She may be a people pleaser who has trouble saying no to people... so you asked her to do something, then someone asked at the same time, and she asked herself how she could do both.

Most likely the date with you just isn't that big a deal, so she's decided to roll it in with something else fun she wants to do, that way even if the date doesn't go great, no biggie, she has other people around and she'll have a good time anyway.

My rule is on principle these 'no reason, let's just do something different' counteroffers need to almost always get shot down.

Here's an even more egregious example of a counteroffer in this vein:

You: How about we meet tomorrow at Utley Station and head over to Food Street?

Her: I think we should see a movie. The new Superhuman Saves the Universe IV looks good.

It just seems tone deaf. Maybe she's autistic? Or she might just not care.

The one exception to the "almost always shoot these down" rule is if you can tell she's genuinely excited, and she proposes something cool:

You: Let's grab drinks Wednesday night at The Flagon. Happy hour starts at 8 then -- wanna do then?

Her: Ooh, The Flagon! I like The Flagon but how about this: Salsa Wednesday at Julio's. Have you ever been? Wanna go?

All right, she didn't give you a reason, but it's clear she's really excited and wants to do this.

Break out your usual decision-making calculus for that one, because who knows, perhaps it's a good date.

For the rest of these, though, if she's not giving a reason, shoot it down:

You: Why don't we say Tuesday, 6:30 PM, at The Face down on Martinez St

Her: My friend just invited me to drink cocktails by the beach Tuesday night. Why don't we do that?

You: Sounds like a fun time! I was kind of hoping to do something a little more one-on-one. Let's reschedule for a time when you're less busy. Maybe Friday or we can do something next week.

(this assumes the times she gave you when she was free were Tuesday and Friday; if she said Tuesday and Thursday, then you'd say "Maybe Thursday" instead of Friday, etc.)

Note that you do NOT ask if you can meet her again.

You are just telling her "Maybe [this other day you are free] or next week."

She then needs to come back and say "Yeah, Thursday is fine!" If she doesn't, then you just let it die and try her again the next week... perhaps she'll be less cavalier about counteroffering with no reason then.

 

What If She's Rude in Her Counteroffer?

You can tell from reading powersize's texts he interprets this girl he is messaging to be rude/uppity/egotistical.

Is she?

Well, maybe.

She might also just be replying in a matter-of-fact way, and if he dealt with her in a non-clueless, boring way she would simply reply in a different matter-of-fact way more in line with what he wants her to do.

The fact is you are usually not going to be able to tell if someone is being rude or not over text. There is no voice tone or facial expression.

I know, I know... you THINK you know how someone else meant something.

Well let me tell you, as a guy who's done a lot of texting and has actually asked girls, "Hey, what were you feeling when you sent this message?" there is stuff you will think was her being rude that was just her saying something without emotion.

There is also stuff you may not realize was her being rude, but she might tell you later she was pretty pissed when she sent that text.

Inexperienced men think they know what a woman is feeling when she texts. Experienced men assume they probably don't.

An experienced dater is far better at knowing what a woman is probably thinking over text than an inexperienced dater, but he also realizes how poor a communication medium text is and how easy it is to misinterpret messages without vocal, facial, and body language information.

Try to think like an experienced dater. Even if you think a text 'seems rude', assume she's simply talking straight, and stick to best practices in your response -- because much of the time your emotions (tricked by the medium of text) can betray you.

 

But Shouldn't You Stick to Your Guns?

There's some way of thinking a lot of men have that you should always 'stick to your guns' and 'never waver' when you ask for or suggest something.

If you say you want to take her to Starbucks, gosh darn it, you're taking her to Starbucks, whether or not she says she can't stand the place!

In reality, if you're going to be an inflexible dater, the only women you're going to get are the most pliant, submissive sorts -- and those who are chasing you sufficiently hard that they'll push aside their wants and do whatever you want. However, none of these girls will typically counteroffer you in the first place.

If she's floating a counteroffer, then, that tells you she's not a super pliant girl and she's not chasing you.

Will sticking to your guns work if she isn't?

I played around with it in my early days, trying to insist women did what I originally suggested and they counteroffered against, and it just looks lame and doesn't work.

At best you pull a girl onto a date she agrees to begrudgingly... but the odds she flakes are high.

More often you simply alienate the girl, who feels like you aren't listening to her (obviously she has some objection -- logistics, preference, trust, pace; or it may be something she isn't telling you), and a man she barely knows and is only halfway interested in (as will usually be the case if she's counteroffering you) who isn't listening to her isn't the most alluring romantic option.

Sometimes you may get whiny girls who are hooked on you you can stick to your guns with. That looks like this:

You: Hey, come on over on Sunday, we'll head to the pool.

Her: OMG no, I can't do the pool, I am still sunburned from my last beach trip. Let's just do something indoors. The mall?

You: Just slather some sunscreen on, don't be so dramatic. You'll be fine. We'll be outside. It's good for you. Way better than the mall.

Her: Sigh, fine. I'll meet you at 2.

Notice though that even when sticking to your guns, you are not just shooting down her counteroffer and suggesting "No, we do mine!"

Instead you are handling her objections (telling her to put sunscreen on to protect her sunburned skin) while continuing to sell the date ("be outside" "good for you"), as well as positively contrast it with her counteroffer ("way better than the mall").

That's good game.

That's how you deal with counteroffers.

 

Dating on Your Terms: You Can Make Her Terms Yours

As we wrap up, I want to stress that you are still dating on your terms here.

At no point are you letting her lead. If she suggests something else "Let's do X" and you decide to accept it, you are not saying, "FINE, we'll do your thing!" Rather you are saying "X is actually a great idea. Yeah, let's do it." You are assuming leadership of the date, thanking her for a good date idea, the way a leader thanks one of his lieutenants for a good idea, then leading from there.

This the proper way to deal with counteroffers:

• It isn't one-word "hope and pray" clueless questions

• It isn't rigid insistence to her of your rules

• It isn't questioning her actions as a dater

• It isn't arguing with her about the merits of a kind of date

All those are the actions of subordinates:

• Hoping and praying leaves it to the other to decide and lead

• Insisting on your rules (without also giving instructions) leaves it to the other to lead around them

• Questioning someone's actions when you should be leading is you giving a suggestion to the other person to allow her to lead better

• Arguing the merits of this or that item is what you do with someone you are trying to convince to your side, so he can lead where you want

That's the biggest reason powersize failed lost this girl. He behaved like a follower instead of a leader, and put her in the leader role and tried to get her to lead where he wanted.

Women aren't attracted to followers. They want leaders.

And that's the final lesson for our piece on counteroffers:

No matter how you respond, lead.

Chase Amante