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Alex writes in with a question about a follow-up article
to the one
on precedent: “Dating and Relationship Precedent: Why It’s
So Very Important.” Here's his email:
“Hi Chase and friends at girlschase.com
Your articles are amazing! I found Chase's article on precedent to be thought-provoking:
http://www.girlschase.com/
content/dating-and-relationship-precedent-why-it’s-so-very-important
I was wondering if you guys think writing a secondary article on how to recover after precedent has been set poorly would be a good follow-up idea.
For example: Say with this particular girl, I've moved too slowly with her, been overly helpful, white-knighted her, and acted overly insecure. As a result, I ended up losing her. But what if I want a second chance? Do you have any suggestions on bouncing back after setting poor precedent?
I know it would be best to move on, and I wish I knew about setting good precedent back when I was inexperienced, but sometimes I just want a second shot. I think it would be excellent to have an article on bouncing back after poor precedent, if possible.
Let me know if you guys think this would be a good suggestion!
Best,
Alex”
This is a sticky issue, and it's not one with an easy fix... not even a remotely easy fix. It's also a totally irrational problem to have, in the grand scheme of things, and it's one that's rooted firmly into a scarcity mentality of some sort or another - it may be that you don't feel you can ever meet another girl as amazing as this one (you lack absolute abundance), or it may be that you don't know if you're ever going to find another girl at ALL (just a complete lack of abundance mentality) - or, at the very least, you've just plunged so much time and emotional investment into this girl that your psyche won't let you let go.
The rational option is always, "Go out, forget about the girl you've dug yourself into a deep pit of despair with, get more skilled with women, upgrade your game and your fundamentals, and go date and sleep with 10 more women hotter, cooler, and more interesting than this one."
Yet, it's a question that comes up SO MUCH from guys, that it's probably worth addressing on its own: how do you change a girl's perception of you when it's already pretty low?
It will require you to move mountains and pull off feats that few
men ever have, but if you're willing to give it your all, I may as well
lay out the tools for you. So, by popular request...
Comments
changing what other people think about you
Hi Chase !
first of all, I'd like to say thanks a lot man for all the effort you make in writing such an amazing article about Dating for men & those fantastic articles about the self improvement & the mindset, I truly believe that if Casanova was living in 2013 I'm sure he will be reading girlschase :D
but I have a question, I'd like to know how to change what other people see you & think about you, in my experience I've learned that disappearing for some time and changing your look can really help to neutralize how other people see you, and from there it's all about keeping your new image alive, but I like to know if you have even more ideas about this matter.
cheers !
Re: changing what other people think about you
Alexander-
Well, that's essentially what this article was all about! The precedent you set is what decides how people see you and think about you - to change how they see you and think about you, give them new precedent, and give them reasons to reconsider whether the past precedent you set may not be representative of who you really are, and/or who you are right now.
Going away for a while and changing your look can help, but you MUST have real, obvious behavior changes to go with them - people are going to expect you to be more like your old self than not, even if you don't resurface for decades (e.g., meeting you again at a high school reunion after 10 years - they'll wonder if you're still quite the same, but if you are, it won't take long for them to figure this out).
Chase
I'm the excited one -
I'm in the category of the excited. Due to bad precedent, it's seeping into other parts of my relationship with this person.
Can you give a way to word the #2 option plz. It's important so if you could give a text example or conversation example that would hit home so that it's done as "respectfully and strongly" as possible.
Thanks Chase.
There's no magic pill.
Anon,
You are claiming you are in the "excited" category, but then you are asking for a "magic pill" text to somehow change a girl's views.
If Chase wasn't clear enough already, there is no text or conversation that is going to change bad precedent until she sees that you have clearly changed yourself. If you think that there is a text that can convey this instead of ACTUALLY changing yourself, then you missed the point of the article.
And since I've been in the situation before where I set bad precedent with a girl who was extremely into me, I can tell you that there ISN'T a magic text or conversation that will turn things around. She needs to see you again after a long period of time and change, and as Chase mentioned, by that time, you will probably be meeting higher quality girls anyway.
- Franco
Franco, I think he meant that
Franco,
I think he meant that he needs to make "the speech" and then cut contact and change himself. Maybe it is a girl that friendzoned him so he wants to show her that he wants to improve himself. And if he knows now that he has no chance with her because she sees him only as a friend and he is willing to lose this friendship in order to have possible chance with her in the future once he improves, then he needs to send "Listen, I dont think we should hang out this often, I plan to do this and this and I just did not want you to feel like I am avoiding you" kind of message. And then go and improve.
You might be looking at it differently, because you seem like a master to us beginners, the way you present yourself on this site. So your point of view, even though you surely had this problem too, might be a bit clouded at the moment. And it is good you reminded that there is no way to talking yourself to her pants but to me, it seemed a little harsh-tone. But problem can be lost intonation because of the text communication.
I did the same thing once, then I realized I did not change much but... I did it with a girl from a class a year ago, she met me after a blown up date. Where I was in an appartment of that date girl, did not close, missed a train, got home at 5 AM and had to get up at 6 for Friday. She was excited to see me, I was horribly underslept so I was dismissive so she talked like 90% of the time. And this summer she really had a thing on me at one outdoor party.
We were not really hanging out, we were meeting at class and talking sometimes after. During exam period we used to chat on facebook almost every night and then I read article about long chatting with girls. And I thought, this was my way out of friendzone, so I told her one night - as Chase says how strong guys talk less, in brief and on point. So after some small talk I just texted her, that I am not going to continue chatting with her every night as we used to do, because I have a big exam on Thursday and after that I have plans for winter. And I wanted to focus on other things and that sitting behind computer does not seem as a good investment of my time no. So I am just letting her know so she would not feel like I am avoiding her. And since the world is big, we might never see each other again, so I said my goodbye. And her only reply was something like "You dummy, I want to keep seeing you!:) We can arrange something. Ok, good night now!" And then I met her on that Friday after the blown up date and on that party this summer. I did not improve much, just my wardrobe, I was working out with my body weight so I fixed my rouneded back from ice hockey a bit, facial hair and internalized some knowledge from this site.
So I would suggest short and to the point message. If during chat, just ignore what her objections, just get the message out and then excuse yourself that you had a long day etc. Making it clear you are not ditching on her, because you have plans, which will take most of your time. And then go radio-silent. Maybe mention something like the exam I did, she then asked how it went and I just answered with "good, I got 2" (our rating is 1,2,3 and then 4+ = second try, 4 means fail). And then I never contacted her again.
Hi Franco, He did mention
Hi Franco,
He did mention that most guys just vanish from the girl's life with no explanation: "Many times guys just disappear from girls' lives when they give up, and the girl never knows why or what happened. This way, you're giving her an explanation: it's a nicer way of saying, "Your value to me was as a prospective partner, but I no longer believe in those prospects. Thus, my value to you is no longer available - I need to go make it available to other, more reliable prospects instead."
I would do that myself. I'm only curious as to how the text or convo to "disappear" would go in way that's strong altogether. It wouldn't matter, it's only just!
Wording
Anon-
Best if you draw her into saying that she's dating other people or something of the sort, and you can just be surprised / flummoxed, and go, "Oh. Really? Okay, yeah… um, I understand. Yeah, no, that's totally fine and cool and you should do it. Me, it's probably time for me to really go hit the dating market in earnest myself right now too. Yeah, I've been being silly; I think I was spending a little too much time on you and thinking you were one thing when you're something else, and that's totally my bad, I shouldn't be putting thoughts on you like that. Anyway, I can't really be plunging a lot of time into this relationship anymore, because I need to be focused on my love life, but you know, we can still be friends, just not hang out quite so much."
Chase
expectations
Hello,
I think people who do not want to be fake will get this article more. I realized one thing, thanks to your articles, about this precedent thingy in summer. When you meet new people and new girls, they are more receptive and because they are hoping their Perfect guy might have arrived to them, they have stronger emotions and are more interested. And because this particular girl might have thought that too, she later realized that I was not him and her emotions, respect and other things were not that strong. Which means, even if I had got together with her, I would have known she would not see me as the most interesting, coolest or greatest guy in the world, "never" she would. Because for her some guy who picked her up and fucked with her on a festival might be more manly man to her than me, because he proved himself as more manly in this area. And I thought I did not want this. To know that I am only like 80% man for her. I know she would be happy that we go together because she "somehow" changed her mind, wanted me and then we got back together. So happy as if she did it or something she wished for happened. But long term, with kids, I would have this feeling as if she would see me only as a father of her children and not the manly man and might even leave me with kids on my neck because dude charmed her while I bored her during a bad period of time.
So I had conversation with a female friend about this. I dont know how we got there, but basically she thought as If she is greatest girl for me in the world OR that she tought I wanted to be with her, I dont know now. But I remember how I quite made quite cocky laugh how I did not want that. That I only expressed my feelings because I thought she would like to know how other people see her, because usually people do not do that in .. em.. detailed version. But that I wrote that because I did not think we will see each other again and WROTE that so she could read it if she would feel down and needs something nice to read. And continued with something from this article, that she would never see me as much of a man as if we have just met and go together and that I did not want that. And that was the reason. And she first said if I was lying about those things I wrote, and I said I did not but the reason I see good qualities in someone does not mean I want to be with them, then she said something, dunno what it was.
And then couple of days later she was chasing me and at one point I know I could have had her in bed because it was really obvious from her that she wanted me to fuck her but I told her about my trauma. And we talked about that but at the end she started to think of me as some impotent guy and lost all interest. Which I understand but it kinda deepened that hole in my soul.
I mean, people can make lots of excuses and I basically lied, because at that time I wanted to be with her. But because the kind of friendship we had and it was from start it looked like that now she got the final piece of a puzzle. That explanation you mentioned here.
I also realized that based on what people say. They obsess over some girl, than they meet some other girl and this one shows up. Their current girlfriend is causing drama or [insert whatever], they break up and then talk to this girl they were obsessed with. Then, they get together with her and after a week they have this internal bleeding of how they thought it would be different. That it is not all rainbows and unicorns and happy songs and smiley shinny aura. So even though I have never experienced this with a person, I kinda get it. Because it is the same feeling with things or tests or other life opportunities - jobs, acting parts, parties whatever it is.
Because there is the other side of that coin too, your side. You have built up so much expectations for her that when you get her, she can't match them. She is no match for the goddess of Mount Perfection, you had painted with gold colors in your head. And you do not know what happened because it is her.
It is very helpful to not just read your articles but also think about them. I got this realization based on some of your articles, based on a hint that it provided. Based on my analyzis during a rainy day, looking out of window towards cloudy sky.
The realization was also that the expectations we had about people can horribly deceive us and then mislead. That the best might be to expect nothing or only like "Oh, I got there, let's see if it can go further" kind of expectations.
Because I used to be like - if I talked to a girl I started to picture her as my girlfriend, how she would act on walks in parks, on fairs, in coffee shop, in an appartment, in a bus on our way somewhere, going to shopping malls and such things. And that is also the reason why having a simple goal like "talk to this girl for 4 minutes" can be so powerful, because once you talk to her for 10 minutes you are now suddenly made it past your goal and your mind is usually "ok, I reached my goal, now I can just relax and do whatever I want." And at the end, you maybe end up talking to her for 2 hours and become lifelong friends or even parthners. Because you seemed relaxed.
Well, it is a lot of characters here but I just wanted to point something out.
Michal
Re: expectations
Michal-
Absolutely - expectations can really throw a monkey wrench into the gears if you aren't careful about them. Best is, as you say, dropping expectations of your own about how any given thing will proceed forward (a removed "I'd like this to happen" objective is best, sans the emotional hoping / dreaming / fantasizing), along with working to make sure you're creating the right kind of expectations yourself in the people you meet to help guide them toward the right end (e.g., nice guys set the expectation of "I'd love to be your totally platonic, sexless buddy" when what they really want is to be a girl's lover / boyfriend - recipe for disaster right there).
Chase
Amazing Article By Demand & Getting a Maybe When Asking Girl Out
Seasons Grettings to you Chase,
I just read the article title and i basically just rushed through my reading. Im going to read it over, but all i can say now is that this ARTICLE IS AMAZING. Your site just gives me hope to change, resources and the motivation to change. I love this! this is by popular demand ( its a lot of work to get this going though ) and 1 ive been waiting on. I met a girl about 2 months ago at school and asked her out two weeks ago. she said "maybe". I asked her out to lunch when she is free. i think since she is in my social circle that the best way to deal with this slight bad precedent is to use preselection and my fundamental increase now since its not too bad. Its just that i didnt move a little faster when i could and she didnt invest enough.
Anyway, this article is 1 of the best ive enjoyed so much in a long time. i have 1 question today though:
The story i told above of me asking out a girl and getting a "maybe" to go out, when i get a maybe, how do i move forward? This response fazes me and i dont know how to respond. Can you tell me what a maybe means? i feel slighty excited and like its a soft letdown. What should i do and am i correct. What are some things i could say after getting a maybe?
The things i did wrong were:
1) Asking her out a bit sloppily with a shaky, nervous voice
2) Asking the question in a tone as to say "Im not sure you will say yes but i HOPE YOU DO SAY YES!
3) Taking too long to do it
4) Forgetting a have a good converstation, build a good yes ladder, getting her investing in me before, moving her, then asking her out. something like that...
I want the second chance and it wasnt extremely bad precedent. Just a few errors.
So how do i deal with a "maybe" and bounce back better when she says it or next time i ask her out? Thanks in advance!
-Troy
"Maybe"
Troy-
Glad you like the article. "Maybe" means "no, but I'm not socially savvy enough to not lead you on AND not hurt your feelings, so I'll opt for not hurting your feelings but potentially leading you on."
Anyway, it's usually better to go build up some preselection and give the girl cause to get re-interested in you again rather than push right away and get a firmer "no." If you can do a sufficient enough job of making her reconsider her earlier position, she may end up being much more receptive to a date request the second time around.
Chase
Religious Views and Seduction!
Hey Chase,
A thought that has been buzzing me when i read 1 of your articles about "Dating Without Sex, Why it Usually Doesn't Work" was a few thoughts: it seems to me that you have moved dramatically from religion based on your writing on this site. You stated that you were a big believer in Christianity and going to church.
Now most churches meet on a Sunday but i see phrases made along the lines of going to bars and clubs to meet girls maybe on a Friday or Saturday, then doing day game on Sunday.
What i have realized is that most persons who pursue seduction and girls, slowly put there religion on pause or stop. What i want to ask today is:
1) When was the last time you went to church? and how often do you go?
2) What are your views on what the bible has to say about fornication, going to hell for disobeying gods word and living a life of fornication just to be able to fulfill your sexual needs and living a happy life?
Now im not judging here, just curious to know. I realize and agree with you that in modern times now that any relationship cannot be maintained if the partners aren't having sex. Too many times have i seen nice guys end up in the friend zone at best while the bad guys get the girl just because the nice guy didn't even move forward with the girl towards great sex. I now see that in today's world most couples don't get married, or get divorced which is sad to know but its just the way it is. Yours views on this wont necessarily change my beliefs but id love to hear your insight on this. ( And i don't see myself in the future waiting till the bad guys finish with the girl before i get to marry and sleep with her).
-Troy
Religion
Troy-
I was a devout Roman Catholic as a youth, though haven't been a believer in any religion one way or the other since shortly after I turned 14 years old - I discussed this in passing in "The Purpose of Life from a Practical Point of View", but at one point I sat down and decided to seriously weigh the evidence, and found that, at least for me, it simply couldn't support these beliefs. I still have a lot of respect for religions, and after struggling with bitterness for a while (you go through a period of feeling "abandoned", since prayer is recorded by the brain as a social interaction, and the brain treats a concept of a god as another person, rather than just an idea - when suddenly that person is "gone", it leaves a hole - most angry atheists seem to be former believers who've never moved past this stage of bitterness and abandonment), came to see the value in them again.
The Bible speaks about fornication in passing, but nowhere says "You will go to Hell for fornicating"; Jesus himself never spoke out against fornication. The harshest thing it has to say directly on fornication is in the Old Testament, where it instructs any man who sleeps with a virgin to pay her father the bride-price and take her as one of his lives (see "Why Madonna/Whore is Intimately Linked with the West" for more on this). 1 Corinthians aludes to fornication, but doesn't specifically mention it; it may or may not fall under the umbrella of "sexual immorality."
Basically, most of the overbearing religious folks telling you fornication is incredibly wrong are using their own creative/liberal interpretation of what's actually in the Bible. Even when I was religious and devout, I knew this, and thought all the other religious folks I knew who swore abstinence were marching blindly to the beat of men interpreting God's law in their own self-serving ways, and not stopping ever to ask if Jesus really said what they were so certain he said because some priest somewhere told them he did (he didn't).
Chase
just what i needed
Thanks chase for all the effort put into the article, this came right when i needed it. I had a female friend who i always chased because she would tease a lot. I became an orbiter, just like all of the other guys she talks to. I got kinda depressed, and i know i dont want to be an orbiter ever agin. thanks man
Not a forum pusher but I did
Not a forum pusher but I did dramatically change the way I communicated with an ex after landmark and we are sleeping together again. But as described, a real and permanent change must be projected, and most people would look at you funny if you attributed that to a seminar, so I keep that to myself.
You the man Chase!!!
Hey Chase great stuff,
Just have to say I started trying to pick-up girls my freshman year of college (finally gained confidence) and it wasn't till my Junior year that I found this site. Shortly after though I saw monumental changes to the point where i did everything from getting my first girlfriend to using dance game(cant beat the spin move!) to hooking up with a stripper at the club. It really has been a great change and I appreciate the advice.
My question though is how to take advantage when the girl is short on time (studying abroad in Australia) and wants to hang out cause at this point she is the one that's scarce. Keep in mind I still have to create a sexual vibe when meeting her and I haven't texted her my schedule yet so i wanted to know how I could use her urgency to help with texting as well as seducing at her place.
Thanks man
Girl's Short on Time
Rookie-
Nice to hear the progress you're making!
First, I'd recommend checking out this article: "What If She Doesn't Have Time? (and Other Contingencies)"
Second - wasn't sure if you're in Australia and she's there studying for a brief moment, or you're elsewhere and she's about to leave there to go study in Australia, but either way, if she wants to hang, just make it as informal as possible - if you can invite her over to chill out and have some beers (at your place) and throw on a movie, do it. If you can't, grab drinks or a bite somewhere really close by - and then pull her back home after. See this article on setting up dates like that: "Simplify Your Dates."
Chase
Glasses
Hi Chase, I asked this question before in "sexy facial expressions..." but received no reply.
it was about if glasses may make your facial expression and eye contact less sexy.(contacts
are not an option). Thanks.
Re: Glasses
Anon-
Glasses are one of those things that are like big muscles or tattoos or sweater vests or chest hair or any number of other major differentiators: they serve as a polarizer, which some girls LOVE, and some girls do not love. I usually opt for contacts myself, but when I've worn them out, I'll frequently get more polarized reactions - fewer girls seem to notice / pay attention to / flirt with me, but the ones that do give me stronger initial interest. I had a very fit, over-the-top cocky friend who used to wear glasses all the time, and he cleaned up with women - I think the glasses took just enough edge off his over-the-top personality that he seemed attainable to women, whereas otherwise most women probably would've felt like he was too much.
So, final answer is, it depends - on the girl herself and her own preferences, and one what other kinds of value you have going on yourself as well.
Chase
Spin on what people value more highly
How do you interpret the following statement: "people value things they worked hard for more highly than things that they got easily" as it pertains to seduction? One girl I was talking to the other day told me she interprets this statement as meaning she will be viewed as more desirable if she makes a man wait for sex, and play hard to get. And taking the converse, she also feels that men will view her as less desirable (thus respecting her less) if she gives it up more easily.
Although I personally don't mind the "challenge" of waiting to see when a girl will give it up to me, and having to work a little harder for it, but, after gaining more experience with women, I already know that sex is going to happen sooner or later. (Of course I don't say this, I just play along). So the 'wait' time for sex isn't the issue at all.
As you mentioned the other day, the reality of the situation is that women (and men alike) are basically commodities to each other. The fundamental services we provide to each other are essentially good conversation (bc no matter where you take a girl, you will talk to her, and of course great convo/rapport is what leads to bonding, among other things), and good sex. Of course there are various other things that men and women do for each other (such as provide inspiration, introduce each other to interesting ideas/concepts/places, provide comfort from the vagaries of the world, maybe provide great value by cooking for each other and doing other things to make life a little easier for each other, and much more). But at minimum, it's all about good conversation and of course sex. So to me, what differentiates women from each other, is how I FEEL in response to their unique personalities, wit, humor, demeanors, emotional intelligence, empathy, intellect, interests, physical attributes and so on. (And of course I do my part to excite women too). It's hard to explain with logic, but some girls excite me more than others. And this feeling is the differentiation for me. I've found myself as of late asking: do i feel this excitement or not. Do you think this is appropriate? Like a girl could look really good from a logical standpoint on paper, with a laundry list of accomplishments, ambition, and potential, but if I'm not that excited from our interactions, I might still do something with her, but the experience just isn't the same as when I am excited!!
The exciting ones are the ones who I desire more highly. I don't value them more highly because they made me wait long for sex, or tried to make me chase by playing hard to get (I wouldn't chase anyway), but because I had to wait to meet her and in the meanwhile meet other women, who to me were lesser inspiring. So to me, having to meet and deal with people with selfish or ridiculous attitudes, or lukewarm (vs passionate) demeanors and so on, and having to feel the resulting indifference or sometimes negative emotions that I felt...I have a much greater appreciation for the exciting girl. It's like the hard work was done prior to meeting the exciting girl, so when I did finally meet her, and interact with her, and feel this extreme excitement, my attraction soared almost effortlessly. And whether or not she shows little or no resistance to sex, I wouldn't feel any different in terms of excitement.
And as I gain more experience, and do the hard work to become more attractive by making this thing into a lifestyle, I in turn appreciate the hard work that the exciting woman must have had to have done to make herself more attractive. She needs not even say anything about it at all, because real recognizes real. And another side effect of doing the hard work and meeting so many different people (and having limited time to hang out with them all) is that you really become extremely aware of what you want and what you don't want with crystal clear clarity.
So if you had to advise women on increasing their desirability, would you tell them to focus on tactics like "playing hard to get", or would you tell them to focus on their key personality traits (intellect, empathy, demeanors, sensuality, humor, wit and so on) so the essence of their beings actually become really fucking hard to get?
Emotional vs. Logical Value
Breeze-
It's an interesting conundrum for a girl, yes. On the one hand, stretching things out and being harder to get does make the average man value a girl significantly more highly, and there does seem to me to be a certain deep-seated value switch that gets triggered with women it takes men longer to get. On the other hand, a woman's got to have enough value to make men both want to chase her, and continue to value her once they've gotten her, especially if she's going to draw things out - nothing worse than her getting a guy, investing a few years into a relationship, and then having the guy realize that while his emotions went crazy for a little while, she just doesn't have all the qualities he's looking for, and he decides to jump ship.
I've seen with countless, countless men how brutally effective pursuing a girl for a long period of time is at ratcheting up emotional investment (see: "Can't Stop Thinking About Her? Here's Why You Need to Meet More Girls." Even when I thought myself immune to it, I slipped up and went through a period of chasing after a girl for a little while sometime back during an emotionally needy moment, and the emotions I ended up developing for her were stronger than the ones I felt for far prettier, smarter, more charming, all around higher caliber girls who matched me far better that I took as girlfriends later on. It's surreal looking back at it… I can STILL feel some emotion for her, even though she doesn't come close to stacking up to any girlfriend I had before her or since. Simply because she played the game well and made me chase, she managed to trick my brain into emotionally valuing her more highly. I've seen this repeatedly with more men than I could tell you - from newbie guys obsessing over some girl who batted her eyelashes at them, to men with hundreds of lays who finally meet their match - that girl who's better at playing the game than they are, and draws things out and makes them chase.
Of course, the other side of things is the logical brain, and for all but the most emotional men, at some point this brain steps in and says, "Look bub, I know you've got your panties all in a twist about this girl, but c'mon - she's NOT that cute, she's not really all that bright, her personality is kind of fake, and she does this to EVERYONE - I know you want to conquer her because you're so emotionally invested at this point, but in the grand scheme of things, the longer you draw this out, the more you're losing by not getting together with better quality women than this." Whether that's before you've slept with her or after you've had her as a girlfriend for 10 months, it's usually going to kick in at some point if she really doesn't have the intrinsic value to match up with the emotional need she implanted in your brain, and the effect wears off.
So, my advice to women ultimately would be: cultivate yourself into the most amazing, incredible, outstanding woman you can be - and then draw things out with the guy as long as you can without him up and leaving before you give him sex. At that point, he will value you both logically, AND emotionally - and you've got the best of both worlds.
Chase
Not getting anywhere
Hey Chase,
I'm at college and I've asked a girl out on a date but since we have limited communication I've never really gone a step further and tried to set up a date or time to meet up with her. Also, I've worked on my fundamentals but I just can't get that instant attraction from girls, or even after I've asked a girl out they don't seem to get interested or attracted to me at all, I sometimes think that they might try to avoid me?
I feel as though I can have a good conversation with a girl, but I just can't reach that high note you talked about in your "How to ask a girl out" article.
Thanks for any advice and have a good Christmas!
Hook Point
Anon-
Failing to reach a hook point (where a girl switches from aloof / disinterested into immersed / interested) usually means your fundamentals need more work - could be:
If you're in school, and you're meeting women predominantly via social circle, it may also just be that you're moving too slow, missing escalation windows, and letting attraction expire.
I'd recommend taking 10 minutes to sit down and list out all the ways you can up your attractiveness (e.g., adopt sexier facial expressions; get cooler body language; get your hair cut by a talented stylist at a fashionable hair salon; get better clothes; etc.).
I'd also look at where I'm getting most of my experience from - are you doing only the odd approach here and there in class and hoping to see leaps and bounds regardless? That's very hard to do - it's sort of like going to the gym a couple of times a month and hoping to get ripped anyway. Or are you going out to bars, parties, the street, cafeterias, etc., and talking to girls who are strangers - at least 20 to 30 new girls a week? If the latter, you should start seeing results within a few months maximum (and often a lot less) if you're paying close attention to both your fundamentals and where you're losing women, and continually trying out new things with them to get them working.
Lastly, on setting up the dates - once you've proposed one, gotten a "yes", and gotten a girl's phone number, make sure you're following the process outlined here: "How to Text a Girl." Easy to mess up if you get into any of the numerous ineffective texting methods most guys seem to fall back on.
Chase
negativity bias
I want to bring a subject which goes along with what is explained in the article : the negativity bias, the thing that while everything was perfect and the person has had a very postive view of you, after a bad move or action or quarrel, the view of the person become negative. That to say : one bad event can stain significatively a very good past precedent. I noticed that also in me : while having a consistent past of good references, a single bad event can undermine everything in one moment.
Chase, what's your opinion?
Re: negativity bias
Moonray-
Yes, that's certainly something you'll see. The magnitude depends on how bad the bad thing that happens is, and it also depends on how idealistic vs. realistic the person that thing is effecting had thought about the relationship. Particularly with more idealistic people, that negativity bias can be all-consuming; in someone prone to black-and-white thinking, for instance, someone else is all good until something bad happens, and then that person becomes all bad.
When you run into splitting, that's usually a sign of a cluster B / crazy girl (or person), and you're probably better off just getting out. If you're noticing it in yourself, you might see if you can find out if you have a personality profile that predisposes you to this, and, if so, do some work on your own tendency to split to try and reduce it (see that article above linked to black and white thinking).
When you encounter a less extreme variation of that though, the "stain", if it's in someone else, all you can do is keep an eye on him/her and see if this goes away, or if it just hangs like a black cloud forever - if it hangs, you can try challenging it to clear the air, but if that doesn't do it it's time to end things and move on to someone who isn't going to drag the past around like a ball and chain. If you see it in yourself, see if you can find any overly idealistic thinking in your original expectations for the relationship - the problems may well be there, and not with the other person being not awesome enough.
Chase
Are you single?
Chase, great article.
I was hoping you could clear up a few questions I have specifically in regards to Ricardos 'are you single' opener
I use it regularly, not usually straight away as a pure opener but right after exchanging names, saying hello etc, so very early on into the interaction and I really do feel like it is very useful for stating intention and breaking auto pilot. I mean most guys kind of step on egg shells around that question and are very careful how they go about asking it. I just find it to be a very good method for showing myself as dominant, brave and interested. Particularly when combined with strong fundamentals it appears very effective. Just makes a girl think straight away ah okay here's a sexy guy who doesn't bet around the bush who is clearly into me.
HOWEVER, I am not sure that I fell I really understand the specific details and methods for using this opener in the absolute correct way.
Could you just give me your definition and take on the 'are you single' opener and why it works and answer my following questions:
How do you ask that question and make sure that it does not land you in the potential boyfriebd zone as a result of the girl thinking 'ah he wants to be my boyfriebd since he's asking if im single' this is the one worry I have with this opener.
What do you do when a girl replys:
'Ohh I'm not sorry, I have a boyfriend'
'Why do you want to know'
'maybe'
'Why? Are you looking for a girlfriend?'
Basically how can you use this opener but use it as a way of disqualifying yourself as a boyfriebd?
Thanks a lot Chase.
Re: Are you single?
Anon-
The main disqualifier you want to use for yourself as boyfriend with the "Are you single?" opener is not your choice of words initially, but your vibe: intense, probing, and interested. It's an implied direct opener - you don't get very far by trying to tell her you aren't interested (in a boyfriend role, or anything else). If you're strong enough and confident enough in your opener, you're immediately going to come across as a guy who's probably too powerful to be easily roped down into a chasing boyfriend candidate role.
On the boyfriend one, your wording sounds like the "polite dismissal" right after your approach, which means it doesn't even matter if it's true or not (may be, may not be), but either way, she's just saying, "Sorry, not interested." In that case, wish her well and continue about your day - you're not going to change her mind. If she gives you a very warm reception without seeming patronizing or condescending, she might be interested - in which case, see Ricardus's article on the subject here: "Says She Has a Boyfriend? Here's Why It Doesn't Matter."
On the others, either answer and move on, or throw the question back at her:
... then, if she doesn't answer the "are you single?" question, forget about it and dive into the conversation.
There, you tease her a little bit for a funny response.
She's being flirty here; so, flirt back.
In other words, you mostly just give her back what she's given you, except in the "Why do you want to know?" case, in which you just hit her with boldness and see how she responds.
Chase
Happy
One more question Chase.
What are your thoughts in regards to being a
Happy person when it comes to seduction, specifically displaying happiness.
Thing is, from what I can tell the men who are best with women use mainly that kind of bored somewhat sad vibe, you know what I mean?
Is it important to smile? I don't mean that massive 100kilowatt friends only smile but that slight smirk, how important is that ?
I guess looking too bored and sad particularly with strong fundamentals can cause a girl to feel out of your league etc?
-
I really like that slight bored, chilled, semi vacant somewhat sorrowful vibe because I find it my natural aura if you like and very easy to implement. Inside I really am a very happy person, I love life
If you could just give me a brief explanation on being and looking like a very happy guy versus looking somewhat the opposite.
-
It's an interesting thing, I find with other guys it's better to display your happiness etc which in its own way is very charismatic, I mean how how genuinely happy content people do you meet. But for seduction I have better results looking slightly bored, sad and thoughtful?
Why is that? Or have I got it wrong?
Thanks
Girl blew my mind with a 180 degree flake
Dear Chase,
I had read your article on flake management and thought I had flakes managed ok. However, I recently met a girl that totally blew me out of the water. I met her at a club and I approached her and found out she was a 20 year old college student attending a christian university (she's christian as well, which made me wonder why she was in a nightclub). She came across as an inexperienced christian girl wanting to explore outside her religion. I didnt share much about myself except im 25 and still in graduate school. I got her number fast and got out.
I then texted her at 4 am:
"Hey, nice to have met you tonight :)"
to which she responded immediately:
"same here, we should meet up sometime since we live close to one another."
after this, i replied,
"sounds good!" and then waited until 7 pm the next day to ask her out to lunch.
When I asked her to lunch, she replied,
"okayy sure, sounds great. see you then!"
I didnt reply to this and thought it was a done deal and was ready to meet her Wednesday. However, exactly one hour later, she texts again:
"actually, I dont think I can meet up. I'm sorry"
I never had a flake occur with such speed, do you have any idea how to respond to something like this?
My fundamentals were solid, my texting was very reasonable so I have absolutely no idea if this is a test or whatever. Do you have any idea what to make of this mind blower? Thanks Chase!
Next Time, Move Faster!!!!
You let attraction expire. Sounds like this girl was looking to hookup that night or that weekend, and not find a "boyfriend candidate" who wants to take her to lunch first. She was probably very horny and was hoping that maybe an attractive gentleman like you (or someone else) would satisfy her needs.
When a girl actually responds to your text, at 4am, immediately at that, to me, that is an extremely good sign. It usually doesn't play out this way. Some girls will give you their number and don't respond at all. So when you text her at 4am in the morning and she actually responds and even says: "same here, we should meet up sometime since we live close to one another" to me that's a SCREAMING invitation to turn on the heat on her RIGHT FUCKING NOW! She even mentions you live close together! With women's words you must always ask: what's the subtext here? To me, based on the limited info you provide, it seems as if the subtext was "hey dude, I know you're close by and you wouldn't take too long to come and see me right now, right?"
Of course, her words could have meant other things too, but this is how I'd interpret it by default. I'd just have dropped everything at 4 am and gone on the hunt and said "yes we do live close, can you meetup right now to talk?" It can't hurt to move fast. In fact, if it was me if I interacted with her in the club and she seemed really cool and warm and interested in my sexual vibe in person, then I wouldn't even have grabbed her number and left. I woulda tried to keep the night going (if you know what I mean). But say I did do what you did and then I texted her at 4 am and then I responded with an invitation to meet up right then. Even if she said no, at first I woulda persisted like 3 or 4 times just in case. With a different excuse each time. Why move this fast? To me, it's because you gotta look at the subtext:she responded immediately, when she coulda ignored you or waited for hours to respond. She seemed to still like the idea of you in that moment at 4 am! Also, women's emotions fade away fast, so by the next week chances are they don't feel the same way about you anymore, especially if she meets other guys in the interim. So the best way to keep girls around is to take them to bed fast (and I'd only advise to do this if you really like them) then the game changes for you. And that she mentions that you live close by: to me those hints are very loud and clear that she wants to meet now.
Besides, chances are she gave out her phone number to other guys besides you and one of them beat you to the punch. Or maybe she stopped ovulating by time you responded and her meaning she stopped being horny and her christian logic took over. Remember, you were surprised that a christian girl like her was in the club...why do you think she's in the club in the first place? For the music? For the drinks? For the crazy experience? Or to maybe meet an exciting sexy man? If you thought she was attractive, chances are other guys felt the same way about her too. What if one of those guys that she (maybe) gave her number to was a fast moving, charming, enticing, and smooth seducer that turns on the heat and persists hard fast and strong without a hint of shame in his body, and he plays to win (aka have sex with her NOW)? How are you gonna beat a guy like that if you try to take her to lunch first, when he tells her let's meet now and she complies? She's gonna laugh at you like: ugggg this guy is a clown, he isn't exciting, he doesn't push the envelope, he isn't fast moving! YAWN!!!!!
And besides if she wasn't all that interested, then moving fast and inviting her to "meetup now to talk" will screen her in or out. If she meets up then you win. If she acts wishy washy or gives you excuses then her actions scream that she isn't all that interested. Simple. The best way to screen women is to get them to act. Or not act. Simple, that's it, and you can do this in an emotionally detached state. Until the two of you are lovers, then she's just some girl that's cute. No guarantees until she complies with you, so why not find out as soon as possible if she's down? So you can go spend your time doing something else besides thinking about a girl that isn't all that into you?
Point is, you moved TOO SLOW! Hesitation has no place in seduction. At all. Girls don't need lunch first to get horny.
MOVE FASTER NEXT TIME!
Hi Chase, Can the whoops
Hi Chase,
Can the whoops that wasn't me work on reversing a precedent the opposite of you were too needy?
This girl liked me and I liked her too but I wasn't in a good place from a previous breakup. When I see her in person now she gives me a really hard time ( teasing to the point of insulting...Any idea why she does this by the way) and she ignores texts trying to set up a meet. Basically I get the feeling she's attracted to me but thinks I'm not a nice guy and that she can't trust me. (She's divorced which probably didn't help that matter) I'm not "stuck" on this girl but it just annoys me that she decided this based on how I was as a person which I'm usually not.
Thanks Buddy
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